And is canoe polo boat special?

thanks

[benwickland]

A kayak has a closed deck with a cockpit that may be secured against the entry of water.

A canoe is a narrow boat with an open deck.

"Canoe polo boats" are actually kayaks that are about 3 metres long, with padding on the ends. They are relatively fast and easy to turn.

The kayaks used in "canoe polo" are called "canoes" by people who have some mental block about learning or using the proper name of "kayak". They can be quite disagreeable about this, and it is best to be very, very patient with them.

[Miguel]

canoe has an open deck in flatwater discipline, but not in slalom or wildwater.

canoe paddle is different than kayak paddle. Canoe paddle has only one blade, kayak paddle two blades.

Kayak paddler is seated, but canoe paddler is on his own knees.

[paulb]

This is something I have wondered about too. The rules state that players must be in kayaks, but I can't find a strict definition of a kayak.

If you take a boat that was designed as a kayak, remove the seat and replace it with a slalom canoe seat and straps, is it now a canoe? or is it a kayak with a canoe seat? Are there other fundamental differences that would mean that the boat is still a canoe?

It's pretty academic really, in polo you could get an advantage in reach and throw from being in a canoeing position, particularly for a goalkeeper, but the disadvantages would be greater. Hand-rolling would be difficult (impossible?); you would also nead a specially designed buoyancy aid to cover the extra part of you that is now exposed. This would have a negative effect on your movement, such as preventing you from twisting your body properly. The polo rules state that you must use a kayak paddle, which might feel a bit odd to a canoeist, and it would have to be extremely long to easily reach the water on both sides, so it might be a bit unwieldy, but shouldn't make much difference.

In the end, even if it were within the rules, it probably wouldn't be worth it, but an interesting novelty to turn up to a low-level competition in if you have money to burn.

[troy]

Originally posted by benwickland
A kayak has a closed deck with a cockpit that may be secured against the entry of water.

A canoe is a narrow boat with an open deck.

"Canoe polo boats" are actually kayaks that are about 3 metres long, with padding on the ends. They are relatively fast and easy to turn.

The kayaks used in "canoe polo" are called "canoes" by people who have some mental block about learning or using the proper name of "kayak". They can be quite disagreeable about this, and it is best to be very, very patient with them.

A "canoe" is "a small narrow boat with pointed ends usually propelled by paddling".

This is the common definition of a "canoe".

So obviously a 'kayak' is a 'canoe', but a 'canoe' is not necessarily a 'kayak'.

Now, those better informed amongst us are aware that, within the paddle sport (and particularly I think in N. America) the term "canoe" is often used exclusively to refer to those canoes that are not 'kayaks' - that is the ones that you often kneel in and paddle with a single-bladed paddle.

This specific usage of the term "canoe" does not mean that kayaks are not canoes! To say so is just ignorance and arrogance

It would be like saying "a square is not a rectangle"!

[Hopefully you understand:
- that a square IS a rectangle - a special type of rectangle with equal sides, and
- that when someone understands the special parameters that make up a square they generally don't use the word 'rectangle' to refer to a 'square', but to refer to a 'square' as a 'rectangle' is NOT actually wrong.]

So there is nothing wrong with using CANOE Polo, International CANOEing Federation, CANOEists: these phrases do not exclude kayaks, and should not conjure up incorrect images of the sport...

If you want to use "canoe" in such a limited sense, what would you call a sailing or an outrigger canoe?

[benwickland]

Using the terms kayak, and canoe, as defined above, helps avoid a tremendous amount of confusion.

When anybody sees the game for the first time in north america, they ask: "hey, what game is that?". When we say "kayak polo", they say "Oh - cool". When we say "Canoe polo", they say "but aren't those kayaks?" Then we are forced to reply "yes, they are kayaks, but the sport was named by people who have some mental block about learning or using the proper name of 'kayak'. They can be quite disagreeable about this, and it is best to be very, very patient with them."


I have been told that an open canoe is sometimes referred to as a "canadian canoe" by non-north americans. This adds further confusion. How does the "Canadian Canoe Polo Team" explain the game it plays? The use of both non-north american definitions makes explaining impossible.


In answer to your questions, do all sailing or outrigger canoes have a cockpit that can be secured against the entry of water? If no, that makes them canoes.

Next, do you think that all squares should be called rectangles in every day usage? Wouldn't that result in loss of information and confusion? Same goes for canoe and kayak.

To further advance this discussion, here is a website for those who insist on using the term "canoe" instead of "kayak"

http://phancy.www7.50megs.com/4onthefloor.html

[troy]

Originally posted by benwickland
When we say "Canoe polo", they say "but aren't those kayaks?"

Maybe you should simply be prepared to say "Yes, they are kayaks, but that IS a type of canoe."

Originally posted by benwickland
The use of both non-north american definitions makes explaining impossible.

Maybe in N. America, but then you probably don't get asked by people: "What's a kayak?........... Oh, you mean it's a type of canoe?"

Originally posted by benwickland
In answer to your questions, do all sailing or outrigger canoes have a cockpit that can be secured against the entry of water? If no, that makes them canoes.

I haven't seen too many sailing canoes, but I've seen outrigger canoes with decks and cockpits, and I've seen them without... Are you suggesting the ones with decks and cockpits (and spraydecks) are kayaks????

And it seems like you are also saying that:
- a rowing skiff is a canoe, and
- a K4 flatwater racing canoe with an open deck is not a kayak

You should check Miguel's explanations - he's got it right!

I agree that squares are better referred to as squares than rectangles, and if people understand the distinction between kayaks and other canoes, call the "kayaks", I do,
but as I said before:
- it is ignorance to say a kayak is not a canoe, and
- it is arrogance to expect the other paddlers to change their terminology to match yours when their terminology IS correct and also very widely used throughout the world (even if it appears somewhat ambiguous and less informative to some like you).

And if you don't like the term "Canoe Polo", translate it and call it "Kayak Polo", just don't expect the international committee to change their name just because their name implies something different in your colloquial language. Just accept that, elsewhere in the world, "a kayak IS a type of canoe!"

[JW Lester]

I'm sure someone out there can be specific, but what I understand is that "Canoe" was an english approximation of a Native American word for "boat" - specifically the type that was used in the area that is now the NE USA and SE Canada, and is still what North Americans call a Canoe (or Open Canoe ).

A Kayak is an Inuit (Native Americans primarily from Alaska and Northern Canada) boat that is more or less what we'd now call a sea kayak, which are always or nearly always decked and can be rolled. There is a reason why people call the roll an "Eskimo roll."

The British took to calling every kind of native-looking boat a canoe, no matter what it looked like, and that word was exported to most of Europe and the rest of the British Empire including New Zealand. So in the British sense only, a kayak is a type of canoe. And this mis-use of the word canoe for kayak meant the British had to come up with another term for what a "Canoe" is - so they called them Canadians. Then they had to come up with something else to call Canadians, so now they just call them Americans. As for what they call Americans..... well they call us alot of things. That's really all there is to it. The names given to sports reflect the language used by the people who developed a sport, so we have "Canoe Polo" in spite of the fact that it is played in kayaks, and should more accurately be called Kayak Polo (which is what most people unofficially call it in North America anyway).

John

[Pauiiiiinhu]

The difference between kayak and canoe is: Canoe is opened in the from above part, in contrast of kayak q if it presents closed. :bfire:

[Miguel]

Not always Pauiiiiinhu, please read all posts above

[benwickland]

John,

Your explanation is worth at least a pint.

The word "canoe" - apparently was adopted into English from French and Spanish, who took it from a Cariban language from either American Indian peoples of northern South America, the Lesser Antilles, or the eastern coast of Central America. The word "kayak" is definitely Inuit in origin. So the ultimate authority on what these words mean would be
1) Americans (especially the Native ones),
2) then the French and Spanish,
3) followed by other English speakers, who adopted the words last and have some mental block about learning or using the word "kayak".

Incedentally, all definitions state that canoes are pointy, which, by the canoe polo regulations, would automatically exclude them from use in polo. Just one more quirk that makes the game interesting I guess.

Cheers,

Ben

[paulb]

benwickland: What is your source for the definition of canoe being pointy? General language dictionaries are notoriously vague/inaccurate when describing technical matters. If it is from such a dictionary, then check the definitions of kayak:

(two US dictionaries)
American Heritage dictionary:
An Inuit or Eskimo boat consisting of a light wooden frame covered with watertight skins...

Websters:A light canoe, made of skins stretched over a frame

(one english one)
OED: Eskimo one-man canoe

Both of the american definitions render all boats commonly used for polo not-kayaks. Since the rules state that kayaks must be used, we should all go out and buy some wood and skins. Curiously, two of the above definitions mention canoe.

Certainly, a more precise name for our sport is kayak polo, but as the square-rectangle argument goes, canoe polo is not wrong.

The International Canoe Federation has a remit over Kayak and Canoe sports, and since most of the racing disciplines are identical for either boat type, there is an undeniable commonality between the two. Do any of you kayak-is-not-a-canoe people have a name that unifies the two types of boat? paddlesport craft?


Tracing a word to its etymological origins and applying it that way goes beyond pedantry and can be just plain wrong. As can be seen in the above definitions of kayaks. Saying that a pacific outrigger is not a canoe because it is not of North American origin is the same as saying that the person in charge of the kitchen in an english restaurant is not a chef because he is not French. Applying the indigenous American rule I could sell you almost any nut I please and call it a pecan, and you would have no reason to complain.

Note that all of the words "Kayak", "Canoe", "Chef", and "Pecan" are English words with origins in another language, when talking about their meaning in English, we are not talking about the meaning of the word in the original language. Take "Thug", "Punch"(the drink), "Kangaroo", "Claymore" to name a few famous examples.

[Izzy]

It would be interesting to know how this canoe/kayak issue works in no English-speaking countries.
Here is the start:
In Russia the Federation is called "All Russian Federation of paddling on Kayaks and Canoe" and our sport is called "Canupolo" (probably because of Finland influence)

[Miguel]

In Spain there is also another word "piragua", a canoe and a kayak are both "piraguas". Our federation is called "Real Federación Española de Piragüismo". So we call "canoa" those boats in which you row with a single blade paddle, and "kayak" those boats in which you row with a double-blade paddle.
Here we say "kayak polo" instead canoe polo.

[Paddy W]

If you sit in a 'canoe' and paddle it with a double-bladed paddle does the 'canoe' become a 'kayak'? If you then kneel does it become a 'canoe' again or do you have to kneel AND use a single bladed paddle for it to become a 'canoe' again? Or is a 'canoe' always a 'canoe' no matter how you paddle it?!?

What is a 'boat'?

Can you have an 'inflatable canoe' or 'inflatable kayak' or are they just 'inflatables?